A Breakthrough In Eschatology
Sample from: Chapter 7.
The Beasts Arise
First of all we have to understand that God who created all things, gives this vision. Time is one of the dimensions of this universe that God created. He is not subject to it. He exists outside of time. He can see the end from the beginning. From his position above world history, he can look down upon, or even enter into any moment in that history.
Because of this unique perspective, God does not have to describe the events of world history in linear order for them to be an accurate account. With God there is no past, present or future. There is only now.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, those things that have not yet happened. Declaring, ‘My word shall be done, and I will do all that I wish’ [Isaiah 46:10]
Beloved, don’t forget this one thing. That with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [2 Peter 3:8]
When considering this vision, imagine you have a bird’s eye view. Look down on the events described as if you were looking at a map laid flat on the floor. This map of world history, past, present and future, begins with Daniel captive in Babylon and ends with Jesus Christ the Messiah taking over rule of the world.
Consider it possible for the vision to start at any point in time on that map of history. It may describe the past, present, or future in any order, or simultaneously.
1 During the first year of King Belshazzar of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions in his mind, while he lay on his bed. So he wrote down the dream, summing up the main points.
Note that this was the first year of the last king of Babylon. Belshazzar was ruling in the absence of his father: Nabonidus, who was elsewhere on business. Babylon was not arising, neither was Nabonidus or his son. Both they, and the kingdom were already established. Babylon had reached its zenith many years ago under Nebuchadnezzar.
2 Daniel said, I saw in my vision by night, and beheld the four winds of heaven stirring up the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, different from each other. 4 The first was like a lion that had eagle’s wings. I watched until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on it’s feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
Wrongly connecting this vision with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in chapter two, most commentators say this beast depicts Babylon.
Q. Why?
A. Because Babylon is the first of the four kingdoms in chapter two.
Q. But why must it be the first in this vision?
A. Because its the first beast to rise.
And round in circles this mistaken thinking continues until we take time to look more carefully at what Daniel was told in verse seventeen.
5 And look! Another beast, a second, like a bear. It raised itself up on one side, and it had three ribs in its mouth between the teeth. And they said this to it: ‘Arise and devour much flesh’.
Now that the first mistake has been made the commentators ignore the beasts by which God depicts Medo-Persia and Greece in chapter eight, to force-fit the interpretation of chapter two’s great image onto this one. They tell us the bear depicts the Medo-Persian Empire.
Q. Why?
A. Because that was the second empire after Babylon.
But in chapter eight God gives Daniel a vision of a ram to depict that empire.
6 After this I looked, and saw another, like a leopard, that had on its back four wings of a fowl. This beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
The commentators tell us this is Greece. The kingdom of Alexander the Great.
Q. Why?
A. Because it’s the third empire.
But in chapter eight God depicts that kingdom by a goat.
In chapter 8:26 the angel Gabriel links this vision with that of the ram and goat when he says: “And the vision of the evening and morning that was told is true.” This being the evening vision, and chapter eight, the morning vision. Why would God use two completely different beasts to depict the same empire, in visions that are linked together in the same book?
Some Bible translators have allowed their preconceived ideas to influence their translation of what the angel said in chapter 8:26. They have changed the words “evening and morning” to a plural “evenings and mornings” in order to limit his explanation to dealing with only Dan 8:13-14. But if we look to Strong’s Concordance, we see the words ‘e·reḇ and bō·qer are used, which in every other occurrence are translated ‘evening and morning’.
What the angel is explaining to Daniel from 8:16 onward is clearly the meaning of the whole vision that Daniel tells us in verse one; is the second given to him after that recorded in chapter seven.
Dan 8:13-14 isn’t a separate and distinct vision. It’s part of the whole vision that makes up most of chapter 8.
Those who hold the view that the lion with eagle’s wings represents Babylon, can’t point to any historical or archaeological proof, other than lion images were used for decoration in Babylon. But that was, and still is true of many cities. I have heard a number of commentators say that the lions depicted on the wall of Babylon’s processional street have wings. If the image below is not clear enough, you can view it at this website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate. What you will see is the artists rendering of the lion’s mane that these people are wrongly calling a wing.
Lion mural on the wall of Babylon’s processional street.
Professor Walter Veith posted a video lecture on this subject on his website. During that lecture he presents photographs of two winged lions that he claims are depictions of this ‘symbol of Babylon’ created either before or during Daniel’s time. I believe he is mistaken. I have searched many archaeology websites that deal with Babylonian artifacts. None of them include similar photographs. If what Professor Veith is presenting are not fakes, they are merely depictions of Daniel’s vision created at some later date.
The artifact pictured below is often presented as the winged lion of Babylon. It is not! It is a figure that was known to Assyrians as Lamassu. They were mythological guardians, often placed at gateways to ancient Mesopotamian palaces to protect them from demonic forces. They predated Daniel’s time by centuries, so they have nothing to do with the winged lion that he saw. In fact, although examples of these artifacts displayed at the British Museum are labeled as winged lions, I think it fair to say they bear greater resemblance to other artifacts that have been labeled as sphinx.
Some use descriptions from Jeremiah 4:7; 49:19; 50:17; Lamentations 4:19; Ezekiel 17:3; Habakkuk 1:8 as evidence of God depicting Babylon in this way. But these examples are only describing the swiftness, power and ferocity of the attacker. None of them speak of a lion with eagle’s wings.
7 After this I saw in the night vision. And look! A fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had enormous iron teeth. It devoured and broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet. It was different from the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and look! There came up among them another little horn, before whom, three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And look! In this horn there were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Q. Well that has to be the Roman Empire, right?
A. Yes. But Daniel is describing it as if he was standing at the point on the map of time when the first beast (lion with eagle’s wings) rises. He looks forward in time and sees the fourth beast rise, but he can look over his shoulder and see it also rising in the ancient past during the time of the Seleucid kings, and Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the foreshadow of Antichrist). He may also have been aware of its existence before and throughout his own lifetime.
The purpose of Daniel’s vision seems to be mostly about describing the origins of the Antichrist man. It does this by the horns for his past, and the winged lion for his future. The book of Revelation will later describe the fourth beast in terms of its rise as an empire in more detail. But it too has a lot to say about the Antichrist man.
Rome’s existence both precedes and spans the timeframe of the book of Daniel. It was founded in 753BC. That’s around 147 years before Daniel was taken into captivity. It existed before, and thus far, throughout The Times Of The Gentiles, in the form of a city, then a republic, later an autocracy that morphed into The Holy Roman Empire, with the Roman Catholic Church at its spiritual heart.
The Times Of The Gentiles refers to the period of Gentile influence over Jerusalem and the Jews, beginning with Nebuchadnezzar conquering Jerusalem and deporting prisoners (including Daniel) in 606BC. It ends with Jesus Christ and his people ruling the whole Earth. It is highlighted in the original language version of Daniel’s book by a change in the language used. From chapter 2:4 to chapter 7:28, Syriac/Aramaic is used, (the language of his Gentile captors) instead of the Hebrew language the rest of the book is written in.
And they shall fall by the sword, and be taken away captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be under the feet of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. [Luke 21:24]
We must not make the mistake of confusing The Times Of The Gentiles with the apostle Paul’s use of the term, “fullness of the Gentiles”, found in Romans 11:25. The latter is referring to the completion of the age of the Gentile Christian Church and is a completely different matter.
So how can the text prior to verse seven speak of beasts that existed before it if the Roman beast predates them? The answer is that in its modern day revived form it came after these other beasts in terms of its influence over Daniel’s people (the Jews) and Jerusalem.
The European Union/Union for the Mediterranean is the recently revived Roman Empire; that has even more recently involved itself with matters concerning Israel. Of course ancient Rome had a massive impact on Daniel’s people, but God isn’t pointing to that place on the temporal map.
Yes there are four kingdoms including Babylon that finish with Rome depicted by Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in chapter two. But that shows the history of The Times Of The Gentiles from Babylonian captivity to the return of Jesus Christ, depicted by the rock that smashes the great image. This vision is not repeating that succession of kingdoms. What Daniel sees in this vision are three different, more modern day kingdoms, culminating in a revived modern day version of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Antichrist man.
Daniel is told in verse seventeen that the first of the four kingdoms shall arise after the Babylonian kingdom he is living in at the time of the vision. So he can’t be seeing a procession of kingdoms that begins with Babylon.
Daniel describes the fourth beast in a way that recounts its origins and history. (19 Then I wanted to know the truth about the fourth beast, that was different from all the others, being exceedingly dreadful, with teeth of iron and its nails of bronze that devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet.) The iron and brass (some translations say bronze) depict its Greek and Roman origin. (Recall Daniel’s interpretation of the great image in chapter two.)
The ten horns on the head of the beast represent the ten kings of the Seleucid dynasty that succeeded Alexander the Great. Antiochus IV Epiphanes, (The little horn that came up amongst those ten) uprooted three of those kings. [See chapter eight] He describes the way it has devoured and broken up smaller nations throughout its history, Israel being a prime example.
Rome often kept the existing rulers as titular heads of kingdoms it swallowed up. Antiochus III had already been badly defeated by Rome, and the Seleucid Empire was left paying a heavy fine imposed as a condition of peace. So the Seleucids were in effect already under Roman authority by the time Antiochus IV Epiphanes took the throne. Thus the Roman beast inherited the ten-horn history and spiritual legacy of the Seleucids and the Antichrist.
In 168BC Antiochus IV Epiphanes decided to attack Egypt for the second time. He also sent his navy to invade Cyprus. While marching to Alexandria, he found his path blocked by the Roman ambassador – Gaius Popillius Laenus. Laenus gave him a message ordering him to withdraw from Egypt and Cyprus or consider his kingdom to be at war with the Roman republic.
Antiochus tried to buy time by saying he would have to discuss the matter with his Council. Laenus drew a line in the sand around him saying, “Before you cross this line I want your reply for the Roman Senate.” For Antiochus the implication was clear. If he crossed the line without first submitting to Rome’s demand he would be in a war he could not win. Antiochus agreed to withdraw. [This is from where we get the saying: “draw a line in the sand.”]
But all that only partially explains the connection between the Greeks and Rome. In actual fact Greek aristocracy took over the Roman throne many years before the time of Antiochus. Demaratus the Corinthian was the father of Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, the fifth King of Rome and the grandfather (or great grandfather) of Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, the seventh and last of the traditional kings of Rome. Demaratus was a Corinthian nobleman of the House of Bacchis who fled charges of sedition in Corinth to Italy in 655BC.
9 I watched until thrones were set in place. And the Ancient of Days took his seat. His garment was as white as snow, and the hair on his head was like pure wool. His throne was like a fiery flame, and his wheels like burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him. A thousand thousands ministered to him. And ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.
11 I watched then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. I watched until the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 I was watching in the night visions, And look! One like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And he was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, so all peoples, nations, and languages shall serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away. And his kingdom is the one that shall not be destroyed.
Daniel sees the destruction of the beast/Antichrist man, and Jesus Christ given dominion over this world. The other beasts have their dominion taken away, but they are not destroyed. Their lives are prolonged for a future season and time. That I believe is the final battle prophesied in Revelation 20:7-10.
Those who hold the view that Daniel’s vision of the fourth beast depicts only the early Roman Empire need to explain where the others that were not destroyed are nowadays, and why the scene suddenly jumps over two thousand years into the future without any mention of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or the destruction of the second Jewish temple and the Diaspora. I think it would show those events if it was a forward-looking linear view of history starting from Daniel’s time.
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the center of my body, and the visions of my mind troubled me. 16 I came close to one of those that stood by, and asked him what all this meant. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things. 17 Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings that shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.
That phrase “shall arise” is future tense. In this context it means we are not reading about kings that are already established at the time Daniel has this vision. It means these are future kings. So neither Nabonidus nor Belshazzar is among them.
An example of how mistaken ideas, coupled with a lack of historical knowledge can cause otherwise sound Bible scholars to think they are justified in breaking basic rules of grammar, is seen in the following explanation of why verse seventeen doesn’t mean what it says in plain English.
Taken from Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible:
“Nor is it any material objection that the first of these kingdoms, the Babylonian, was risen already, and almost at an end; since the denomination is taken from the larger number; three of them were to arise, and the first was of the same original with them; thus it is said, Daniel 11:2, that three kings of Persia should stand up, and yet Cyrus, who was one of them, reigned already.”
Below is an account of the succession of Persian rulers beginning with Cyrus. We can clearly see the “three more kings in Persia, and the fourth” that are predicted in Daniel 11:2. Cyrus was not one of them!
Daniel chapter eleven begins in the court of Cyrus the Great. Under his leadership the Persian Empire expanded to include most of Southwest and Central Asia, from the Hellespont and Egypt in the west to the Indus River in the east, creating the largest world empire seen up to that time.
His son, Cambyses II, expanded the empire into Egypt, and was succeeded for a few months by his younger brother Bardiya.
Darius I later tried to expand the empire into Greece. His first attempt failed. He began planning a second expedition, but died before he could mount it, leaving the task to his son Xerxes I.
This Xerxes I was the fourth king after Cyrus. It is this Xerxes who is named in the book of Esther as Ahasuerus. The name Ahasuerus is equivalent to the Greek name Xerxes, both derived from the old Persian language Xšayārša.
There is some dispute over whether or not it was Bardiya who ascended the throne for those few months. One version of events has it that Bardiya died before becoming king, and an impostor by the name of Gaumata or Smirdis took his place. But even if it was an impostor on the throne of Persia, that still equates to a total of four kings after Cyrus the Great.
Xerxes was the king who chapter 11:2 predicted will “stir up all against Grecia”. According to Herodotus, in 480BC Xerxes attacked Greece with an army of more than two million, including 10,000 elite warriors named Persian Immortals. Although initially successful in his campaign. He had to send part of his army back to Babylon to put down a rebellion that had flared up during his absence. Those that remained were defeated in a battle at Plataea the following year. Many years later Alexander the Great would come looking for revenge.
Daniel’s visions concerns things that affect all peoples. But to tell their story they focus on issues that mostly effect his people and Jerusalem during The Times Of The Gentiles.
He had this vision whilst living in Babylon around ten years before that empire was overthrown by Medo-Persia, and his people released from their seventy years in captivity by decree of Cyrus, king of the greatest empire the world had seen up to that time.
Is it any surprise that his vision is of the final years of The Times Of The Gentiles? Or that it begins during the time of another greatest empire the world has ever seen? An empire that makes a similar decree to that made by Cyrus. A decree that would result in Israel’s national revival.
“His Majesty’s government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country”. [Balfour Declaration. November 2nd 1917]
FIND OUT WHAT THOSE BEASTS ACTUALLY SYMBOLIZE:
Get the book:
Daniel’s Seal Broken. Antichrist’s Nephilim Origin Revealed
by Phil Mayo
51 responses to “A Breakthrough In Eschatology”
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- - February 4, 2014
danielsealbroken 
Your point is well taken concerning Dan 7:17 & the words “shall arise”. The fact that all 4 of these beasts are yet to arise also precludes the Roman Empire as being one of them, the reason for this being verses 11-12, 23 & the fact that the 4th beast is destroyed by Messiah at his coming (endtime), this in addition to the fact that the other 3 beasts are given prolonged life beyond that of the 4th beast after it has been destroyed. Given the clear statement in verse 12 that “their lives were prolonged” beyond that of the 4th beast, it is therefore evident the other 3 beasts cannot be Babylon, Persia, & Greece, three kingdoms that have already fallen cannot be described as being contemporary to the 4th.
Additionally, the identity of the 4th beast cannot be Rome because the 4th beast is described in verse 23 as the 4th world ruling kingdom that emerges in the end time as antichrist’s kingdom. There is no need to create a “revived Roman empire” here, because the Roman Empire never ruled but a fraction of the known world of its time., yet verse 23 states the 4th will rule the entire world.
Hi Paul, thanks for your post.
I agree with some of what you say, but I don’t believe we are awaiting all four beast/kingdoms to arise. We are currently in the period of the revived Roman Empire and its transformation from a democracy into an autocracy. I identify all four beast/kingdoms in my book.
Hi Phil
I share the same thought on the Roman Catholic Church as the holy roman Empire, however in 1054 was the start of a split between the Roman church and Orthodox , thus becoming two heads. and in 1538 was the split between England and the Roman Catholic Church and out of that came a third head. So now we have had 4 heads and three more, making 7 and now we see already who they are and out of the mouths of the seven heads headed dragon with ten horns came The unclean spirits who are identified as new age religions that are mixed with worship of Satan and the use of astrology and the practice of magic,Where the Catholic church is guilty of as well, that all came about in early and late 1800’s. From the likes of the new dawn society, The Satanic Church, Helen Blavatsky, Anton LaVey, and in 1844 came a man by the name of Siyyid Ali-Muhammad, a 25-year-old merchant in the city of Shiraz, Persia, announces that He has been sent by God to prepare humanity for a new age and the imminent appearance of another Messenger even greater than Himself. He takes the title of the Bab (meaning “Gate” in Arabic). or Door or the way the light and the truth. It is out of this will come the Antichrist and the seven headed dragon with ten horns who are world leaders nations kings and queens will give up there rain and give the throne to him Then Antichrist. The Antichrist will mimic our lord first coming. This Ali-Muhammad represent John the baptizer who prepared the way for the return of the Messiah. The presence of the Holy Spirit abounds and is a whitens to the fulfillment of Act 2:17-19, Psalm 69:33,
Hi Terrence,
Thanks for you post, but I disagree with most of what you say. I have explained my interpretation of the seven heads and ten horns etc in my book.
HI Phil, I’ve read your Reply.
I know about your book, read parts of it & understand where you’re coming from, but here’s the biggest problem I have with all endtime eschatology that has signed onto the “Resurrected Roman Empires” hypothesis, it is an issue the Bible is totally silent about. In other words such a thesis concerning end-time eschatology does not exist.
I understand how words in Daniel’s interpretation to Nebuchadnezzar concerning the four part image are contorted into creating Rome as the 4th Kingdom, but that is not what Daniel stated concerning the legs & feet of the image.
If only the words at the end of Dan 2:39 are taken at face value we can better understand why Rome is not in this image, reading the end of verse: “…..which shall bear rule over all the earth.”. Rome in it’s zenith of power was never close to ruling the entire known world as was Babylon, Persia, & Greece. In fact contemporary to Rome were empires already greater in breadth & population than Rome, like the Parthian Empire right next door which was vastly bigger than Rome in the time of Christ. Just look at any map of the known world at the height of Roman power & you’ll be amazed at what a small chunk of the known world Rome actually ruled. With this being a recorded fact of history, Rome cannot be the much touted legs & feet of the image because it does not fulfill the end of 2:39.
The essential clue to locating the legs & feet of the image is given to us throughout the book of Daniel if only endtime eschatologists would believe the wording of the prophecies concerning the fourth kingdom. It is a kingdom that must rule the entire world, but the last time there was such a kingdom was Alexander’s Grecian empire……now move on to the next world ruling kingdom & it is clearly identified in Dan 7:23, here describing a kingdom ruling the world as the endtime kingdom of Anti-Christ, Rome is not even in sight here, in fact it has been by now in the ashbin of history by over 1500 years & not a single scriptural hint this is a “revived Roman empire”.
The fourth world ruling empire is simply that of Anti-Christ with no other identifying labels attached to it, but the fact eschatologists continue attaching Roman labels to it is exactly the reason so many will be so surprised when one morning they wake up in bed & find themselves smack dab in the middle of the fourth kingdom seemingly without so much as a warning what was about to come upon them, just like when Babylon was overthrown by Persia.
The whole issue about “resurrected Roman Empires” is a cleverly made up distraction intended by Satanic forces to disguise where to look for the fourth kingdom. Please, clue me in as to how 10 small nations in Europe are going to conquer China if they can’t even maintain control of the North & South American continents?
Hi again Paul.
The links below show the Parthian and Roman empires. I think it fair to say that whilst the ancient Roman Empire didn’t spread so far as to claim influence over the whole world, it was wider spread than the Parthian Empire. And after Rome’s transformation into the Holy Roman Empire it spread even wider.
Daniel 9:24-27 tells us the Antichrist shall come from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and the Temple). They were the Romans.
As to your last comment regarding ten small nations. It depends on what you mean by conquering. The final Antichrist kingdom is described as diverse from the rest. I interpret that to describe the supranational structure of the EU. Nations join because they choose to, not necessarily because they are conquered militarily by it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire
Hey Phil, and hello again to you:
I understand where you are coming from regarding 9:24, but that does not somehow supercede what is clearly stated in 7:23. I brought up the comparison of Rome to Parthia because of the bitter battles between these two coexisting empires which brought Rome’s expansion into Asia to a screeching halt, but this is not the end of this history lesson regarding the message given to Daniel, that the 4th Empire when it arises will rule the entire world, not just a fraction of it.
Next to the Parthian domain to the east was the entire Indian subcontinent , larger even than Parthia, beyond that there was China all the way to the Pacific ocean bigger even than the Indian subcontinent. Total up these three land masses to the east of Rome & that is greater than 3/4’s of the known world, hardly making Rome the fulfillment of Dan 7:23.
I’m coming from the standpoint of taking Dan 7:23 at face value (literally), that the 4th empire predicted to rule the world will do just that, as Babylon, Persia, & Greece did before it. It is superfluous interpretation trying to meld ten very small countries on the smallest continent of the world into the beast that will militarily almost destroy the entire human race. The magnitude of Christ’s own words about the scope of Anti-Christ’s kingdom cannot be a reference to a “supranational structure of the EU”, such a structure is a tenth of the world in size & population, & economic activity, hardly the pathway to world dominance by any stretch of the imagination.
The EU may in some people’s way of thinking be a revived Roman Empire, but in comparison to the rest of the world today, it is almost insignificant, It is only significant in that it most definitely be part of Anti-Christ’s kingdom but in & of itself cannot be.
I know there can be a lot of thorny issues involved in ferreting out the truth of these matters in Bible prophecy, it is most simply done by never adding to what scripture has already stated, and “revived Roman Empires” are not found in Bible prophecy, only in books written about Bible prophecy.
Hi Paul,
Babylon, Persia and Greece didn’t rule the entire world as you say. They were less wide spread than the Roman Empire. And I haven’t suggested that Ancient Rome was the fulfillment of Daniel 7:23. You are missing the vital fact that most of the world’s major economies are either ex-European colonies or tied into the financial system that is controlled from Europe. And that includes the USA that isn’t mentioned in prophecy because it is an extension of Europe. Daniel 7:23 wasn’t going to happen overnight. It is still in the building process. And I wouldn’t call a first world trading block of over 450 million people “insignificant”.
“Babylon, Persia and Greece didn’t rule the entire world as you say.”
………I didn’t say that Phil, I said they ruled the entirety of the known world,,,,, exactly as Daniel states in 2:38 & 4:1 concerning Babylon, 6:25 concerning Persia, and then the written context concerning Alexander’s Grecian empire in 8:20-21as it overthrows the 2nd world ruling empire making Geece the 3rd world ruling empire.
“They were less wide spread than the Roman Empire.”
………but Phil, the known world wasn’t as big during the times of the first three world ruling empires. By the time we get to Rome at it’s zenith the world was populated all the way to the Pacific ocean, China & India were already many times larger than the furthest extent of the Roman Empire.
“And I haven’t suggested that Ancient Rome was the fulfillment of Daniel 7:23.”
OK, my mistake, I guess I presumed this because that is what all the other expositors of “resurrected Roman Empires” teach.
“You are missing the vital fact that most of the world’s major economies are either ex-European colonies”
Now wait a minute here, everything since the time of Adam & Eve is “ex” whatever went before it. If you want to go that route of reasoning Abraham being from the land of Chaldee precludes any of his progeny to be Israelites, They should continue to be Chaldees?
“or tied into the financial system that is controlled from Europe.”
Three fourth’s of the world’s financial transactions occur outside Europe, I can attest to this from my personal present day experience as a commodities, stocks & futures trader as a business in which I engage on a daily basis. Europe is presently in the throes of economic chaos, it’s destiny is beyond its control, only Germany is a bright spot there. Right now China could bankrupt all of Europe except for Germany & England, all China would need to due is call in all the loan & other credits it holds against the EU economies.
“And that includes the USA that isn’t mentioned in prophecy because it is an extension of Europe.”
No, no, no…….this is hindsight reasoning at it’s worst. Everything since Adam & Eve is “ex” something else. The Biblical references to world ruling empires is GEOGRAPHICAL in scope, not RACIAL in scope. This is Euro-centrism at it’s worst.
“Daniel 7:23 wasn’t going to happen overnight. It is still in the building process.”
True, I agree it’s happening right now, but Europe is not the center of it & certainly not Rome or anything to do with “revived Roman Empires”, or anything else Euro-centric, all for the reasons I’ve pointed out above & following:
“And I wouldn’t call a first world trading block of over 450 million people “insignificant”.”
They are if they are the debtors…….they are slaves to their creditors in the U.S., China, & a few other holders of their exorbitant debt. None of these countries have the technology to build an aircraft carrier Phil, how would you expect ten very small countries in Europe to exert the influence the “revived Roman Empire” hypotheses credits them with? Military force is needed to almost destroy the entirety of the human race just before the return of Christ, as it is Christ himself who speaks of Anti-Christ’s kingdom that such would be the case if Messiah fails to return at the time he does.
Hi Paul. You said:
“By the time we get to Rome at it’s zenith the world was populated all the way to the Pacific ocean.”
Holy Roman Emperor Charles V ruled over an empire that stretched to the south Pacific.
“Three fourth’s of the world’s financial transactions occur outside Europe.”
Yes, but the old European family elite still has its influence. Just because a branch of a business does better than the original head office, doesn’t mean the business has changed hands.
“True, I agree it’s happening right now, but Europe is not the center of it & certainly not Rome or anything to do with “revived Roman Empires”, or anything else Euro-centric.”
Here’s a link to a view that disagrees with you: http://www.globalreport2010.com/globalwatch15nov13.pdf
There’s a lot more info out there that leads me to believe what I do, but time doesn’t permit laying it all out here.
Hi Phil. You said:
“Holy Roman Emperor Charles V ruled over an empire that stretched to the south Pacific.”
……….no sooner than reading this I went immediately to a Wikipedia map showing the extent of Charles V geographical range of rule in the 1500’s. “south Pacific”? More like south Mediterranean Phil. He never got outside the area of central Europe & to boot Charles V range of rule was much smaller than the Roman empire in the time of Christ.
……Three fourth’s of the world’s financial transactions occur outside Europe.
“Yes, but the old European family elite still has its influence. Just because a branch of a business does better than the original head office, doesn’t mean the business has changed hands.”
………well then, tell that to the Chinese who hold most of Europe’s debt, it’s news to me & my investor clientele that we’re dealing with Europeans in China & Singapore. Having been to these places I assure you I am quite able to discern the difference between Asians & Europeans.
“Here’s a link to a view that disagrees with you: http://www.globalreport2010.com/globalwatch15nov13.pdf”
……..of course they disagree, exactly the point I’m addressing. My intent is to comport to the plain statements of Daniel’s prophecy that the 4th world ruling empire will rule the entire world & is Anti-Christ’s reign, not the geographical reign of a Roman Empire which at it’s zenith did not control 3/4’s of the known world’s population. What kind of world ruling empire is that? This eschatology of “revived Roman empires” is a total distraction to events already so big that when the final product comes to fruition, a lot of believers will be asking themselves: “How did I miss this?”.
Hi Paul,
My apologies for a less than precise statement.
Philip II of Spain 1554 – 1598, son of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V 1519 – 1556, ruled the Philippines. Spain was a part of the Holy Roman Empire, so it could be argued that so too was the Philippines. But we must not forget that the Holy Roman Empire had a spiritual mistress: the woman who rides the beast. And that Catholic church is world-wide.
I don’t have time to debate the issue about who holds the world’s purse strings. There are plenty of others who have done that and they agree with me. Suffice it to say that it was originally European money that developed America. Then European/American money that developed Russia, China, India, Arabia etc, etc.
The Bible tells us the Antichrist man will come from the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. That was the Roman Empire in 68-70 AD. I say that just as Bible prophecy required the revival of Israel as a nation. So too it requires the revival of the Roman Empire.
Thus far you have only forwarded a negative argument. How about laying your cards on the table. Where is your Antichrist Empire?
Dan 9:26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations. (Young’s Literal Translation)
Phil you said: “The Bible tells us the Antichrist man will come from the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. That was the Roman Empire in 68-70 AD. I say that just as Bible prophecy required the revival of Israel as a nation. So too it requires the revival of the Roman Empire.”
Upon examining the King James translation & looking up a few words in Strong’s Concordance I saw the necessity to lay out before you the exact literal translation to English of the words from the original language text. Opening at the top are the English words as they would be transliterated. Words of 9:26 from which you derive your thesis in the King James (and others) about a Roman leader who must become Anti-Christ are not a concept supported by the literal text, sloppy translating by the King James translators at first glance may seem to infer this at a surface glance, but that’s it. There is no allusion here to Rome, I’m not asking you to believe me, just read the Young’s Literal Translation text.
Phil said: “I say that just as Bible prophecy required the revival of Israel as a nation. So too it requires the revival of the Roman Empire.”
The first half of your immediate above statement is correct, the reason being is because it is stated time & again all through Bible prophecy, as for example in the entirety of the book of Ezekiel. The second half of your statement is suspect because no such statement can be found anywhere in the Bible that the present day existence of Israel is dependent on a contemporary presence of a “revival of the Roman Empire”.
I have on my desk in front of me a world globe. If I cut out a swatch of paper approximately the size of western & eastern Europe, I could fit it into Africa about ten times, into each of N & S America at least four times, into Australia two times, and into Asia at least ten times. If I cut out another swatch of the approximate size of the Roman Empire it would be smaller even than all the countries that presently make up Western & eastern Europe, and if I were to place that swatch over the known world of the time of Christ, I would need about 15 or 20 of those swatches to cover the entirety of the known world of that time. So much for Rome ever being a world ruling empire, and if you want to revive it into today’s world, what really small potatoes it would be.
Phil said: “Thus far you have only forwarded a negative argument. How about laying your cards on the table. Where is your Antichrist Empire?”
As I stated previously, I have on my desk a world globe, as is stated in Dan 2:39-40 that these four kingdom’s “shall bear rule over all the earth”, I simply believe those plain words of scripture. Now you know where Anti-Christ’s kingdom is.
Hi Paul,
I too have investigated the literal meaning of Daniel 9:26, and I believe the King James translation has got it right, as do the majority of Bible scholars. It’s always possible to find a dodgy translation to back a dodgy thesis!
You said “The second half of your statement is suspect because no such statement can be found anywhere in the Bible that the present day existence of Israel is dependent on a contemporary presence of a “revival of the Roman Empire”.
I never said any such thing. What I said was “I say that just as Bible prophecy required the revival of Israel as a nation. So too it requires the revival of the Roman Empire.” It is Bible prophecy that requires the revival of both entities.
It’s easy to misunderstand, and I want to be clear about where you see your Antichrist kingdom. Are you saying it’s all four kingdoms represented by the image in Daniel chapter two? Or are you saying it is Africa, N & S America, Asia and Australia?
Phil says: “I too have investigated the literal meaning of Daniel 9:26, and I believe the King James translation has got it right, as do the majority of Bible scholars. It’s always possible to find a dodgy translation to back a dodgy thesis!”
…….but why would you assume the KJ has got it right? Those translators did not have the benefit of the four best Codices discovered in the19th century and now the Dead Sea scrolls which contain the Greek Septuagint of the Old Testament. The Revised Standard Version of the New Testament is a far better translation than KJ New Testament because the translators were basing their translation from Greek rather than the Latin Vulgate, thus resulting in numerous changes to New Testament text when translated into English.
……additionally the Greek Septuagint of Daniel 9:26 does not support the thesis upon which you base the concept of a leader to arise from within a revived Roman empire who will become the Anti-Christ, just reread the Young’s Literal Translation that I included in my previous Reply, this translation is based upon the original language texts & not old English KJ.
Phil quotes: “You said “The second half of your statement is suspect because no such statement can be found anywhere in the Bible that the present day existence of Israel is dependent on a contemporary presence of a “revival of the Roman Empire”.
Phil says:”I never said any such thing. What I said was “I say that just as Bible prophecy required the revival of Israel as a nation. So too it requires the revival of the Roman Empire.” It is Bible prophecy that requires the revival of both entities.”
…….then you should use different words in stating your position on the matter, because the inference is unmistakable.
Phil says: “It’s easy to misunderstand, and I want to be clear about where you see your Antichrist kingdom. Are you saying it’s all four kingdoms represented by the image in Daniel chapter two? Or are you saying it is Africa, N & S America, Asia and Australia?”
………I thought I was clear in my last Reply about locating the kingdom of Anti-Christ. So I’ll do it again: As is stated in Dan 2:39-40 that these four enumerated kingdoms “shall bear rule over all the earth”, first Babylon had its turn at it, then Persia had its turn at it, then Greece had its turn at it, then Anti-Christ’s kingdom will have its turn at it. Each kingdom is successively larger in size due to population growth. The first three are now in the ashbin of history, we are simply awaiting the fourth which will be much bigger in size because we now have the land masses of the entire planet populated, all the continents as they appear on the globe of the world that sits in front of me on my desk.
Paul, You said “……then you should use different words in stating your position on the matter, because the inference is unmistakable.”
Go back and read my sentence again. Tell me why you think “it” means I am referring to either Israel or the Roman Empire and not Bible prophecy.
Daniel 9:26 RSV. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.
Daniel 9:26 KJV. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off , but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
I don’t see much disagreement between those two translations. And the majority of modern day Bible scholars and modern Bible translations support my position.
What you say in your last paragraph leaves me wandering why you disagree with me. Have you actually read my book? If you had you would have seen that I am saying this revived Roman Empire will become global. It has been expanding in various ways for centuries. Its spiritual influence is global. Its financial influence is global. Its military influence is global (I include the USA here). And its governance is becoming global.
Phil says: “What you say in your last paragraph leaves me wandering why you disagree with me. Have you actually read my book? If you had you would have seen that I am saying this revived Roman Empire will become global. It has been expanding in various ways for centuries. Its spiritual influence is global. Its financial influence is global. Its military influence is global (I include the USA here). And its governance is becoming global”
I disagree with you Phil because of your persistent references to a “revived Roman Empire” that will rule the world. History succinctly demonstrates Rome did not rule the world at its zenith (not even close) & there is nothing stated in scriptural text that it ever will in the future. The scriptural text is clear that Anti-Christ’s Kingdom will rule the world & is totally silent on his kingdom being an offspring or having roots in the ancient Roman Empire.
I don’t understand how you reason that this so-called “revived Roman Empire……..has been expanding in various ways for centuries”. So has China, so has Brazil……. big deal. The Roman Empire is dead & gone, never coming back, but so many expositors of Bible prophecy keep trying to revive a dead carcass. If you want to believe ten tiny countries on the smallest land mass in the world is about to rise up & smash the United States, China, Russia, Brazil, Canada, Japan, India, and others into servitude then you are welcome to your opinion.
Paul, you said: “I disagree with you Phil because of your persistent references to a “revived Roman Empire” that will rule the world. History succinctly demonstrates Rome did not rule the world at its zenith (not even close) & there is nothing stated in scriptural text that it ever will in the future. The scriptural text is clear that Anti-Christ’s Kingdom will rule the world & is totally silent on his kingdom being an offspring or having roots in the ancient Roman Empire.”
“and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”
The city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (Temple) were destroyed by the Romans. Therefore the prince that shall come (The Antichrist) will be a prince from among those same people. The EU is a revival of the Roman Empire. It has not yet spread to its full extent. The original Roman Empire wasn’t global, the prophecy didn’t require it to be, so why do you persist in claiming that fact as support for your argument?
You said: “If you want to believe ten tiny countries on the smallest land mass in the world is about to rise up & smash the United States, China, Russia, Brazil, Canada, Japan, India, and others into servitude then you are welcome to your opinion.”
Paul. One tiny country rose up a few centuries ago and at its zenith people said “the sun never set on its empire. I repeat what I said before. There is no reason to expect “smashing” to be the main tool by which the EU eventually morphs into the Antichrist’s world empire. Certainly not in the case of the USA and Canada that are already parts of it.
26 “and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” KJV
26 and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. NRSV
26 and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; Young’s Literal
26 And after threescore and two heptads, yikaret (will be cut off) Moshiach [Yeshayah 53:8], but not for himself [Yeshayah 53:4-6,8]; and the troops of the coming nagid shall destroy the Ir and the Kodesh Orthodox Jewish Bible
Strong’s Concordance specifies “people as a congregated unit”, “troops”, “attendants”.
So Phil, take your pick on which translation you want to use, or if you have a bias then cherry pick the one that best suits the message you want to convey. In 9:26, “troops” best fits the context associated with warfare, but it’s your book not mine.
Phil says: “Paul. One tiny country rose up a few centuries ago and at its zenith people said “the sun never set on its empire. I repeat what I said before. There is no reason to expect “smashing” to be the main tool by which the EU eventually morphs into the Antichrist’s world empire. Certainly not in the case of the USA and Canada that are already parts of it.”
…………..but the Bible states that this ten nation confederation would destroy the world had not Christ comes when he does, doesn’t sound like a warm & fuzzy morph job to me. One thing for sure though, those ten tiny European countries had better get started on building those aircraft carriers because I just can’t picture China & the United Sates loaning ours to them for the purpose using them to bury 2 1/2 billion people beneath a lot of rubble.
Paul, you quote four translations of the same portion of text, and I am left having to ask the question – and your point is? I have no problem with interpreting “the people of the prince” as “the troops of the prince”. And you can hardly accuse me of cherry picking when my preference is supported by the majority. You on the other-hand have based your ideas on the false notion that ancient Rome had to be a global empire to fit the bill. And cherry picked that dodgy Young’s illiterate translation.
You said: “but the Bible states that this ten nation confederation would destroy the world had not Christ comes when he does.” No! The Bible describes a lot of events that would leave no one alive if Jesus didn’t cut that time short. Not all of them are warfare.
You said: ” those ten tiny European countries had better get started on building those aircraft carriers because I just can’t picture China & the United Sates loaning ours to them for the purpose using them to bury 2 1/2 billion people beneath a lot of rubble.”
You don’t know how things will pan out any better than I. The changes in this world are producing alliances even between mortal enemies. But I definitely agree with you that China wouldn’t be likely to lend it’s only aircraft carrier.
Paul, you quote four translations of the same portion of text, and I am left having to ask the question – and your point is?
…………..my point is that I’m responding to the point you make in 9:26 concerning the emphatic use you make of the word “people” in the King James translation, from which you derive your hypothesis concerning the ethnic & religious origins of Ant-Christ. I’m simply pointing out to you that the Strong’s Concordance definition of the word “people” precludes using the Hebrew language word with only an ethnic tone to it, and that’s what these other translations bear out.
I have no problem with interpreting “the people of the prince” as “the troops of the prince”.
…………..well then, progress I guess.
And you can hardly accuse me of cherry picking when my preference is supported by the majority.
…………….what’s this “majority” you speak of? Other expositors? I really have no concern what other expositors write. When I read the Bible, I keep a Strong’s Concordance close by, I just have no desire for having other people’s opinions trying to confuse me with the facts. The less I indulge in other people’s opinions, the more time I have for studying the actual words of Holy Writ.
You on the other-hand have based your ideas on the false notion that ancient Rome had to be a global empire to fit the bill.
…………..no, not me, Dan 2:39 requires it. It states quite clearly here that all four empires represented in the image must rule the world. Now it sort of sounds like you do not believe the ancient Roman empire ruled the world?
But you do believe a revived Roman Empire will rule the world? Most expositors of prophecy believe the two are congruent. You don’t?
And cherry picked that dodgy Young’s illiterate translation.
…………..please, don’t pick on the poor guy, he did better than the King James translators, give him a lllliiiittle more credit than “dodgy”.
You said: “but the Bible states that this ten nation confederation would destroy the world had not Christ comes when he does.” No! The Bible describes a lot of events that would leave no one alive if Jesus didn’t cut that time short. Not all of them are warfare.
………….it will be the end results of warfare; you know, famine, pestilence, other things that usually follow. Probably not the earthquakes though, but who knows what new things we’ll be coming up with in the decades in front of us in expanding our efficiency for creating mayhem & destruction.
You said: ” those ten tiny European countries had better get started on building those aircraft carriers because I just can’t picture China & the United Sates loaning ours to them for the purpose using them to bury 2 1/2 billion people beneath a lot of rubble.”
You don’t know how things will pan out any better than I. The changes in this world are producing alliances even between mortal enemies. But I definitely agree with you that China wouldn’t be likely to lend it’s only aircraft carrier.
…………..I read somewhere China has laid a keel for the construction of a second carrier. Brittain has a couple smaller class ones, but they’re nowhere near the class of ours. Russia has none. The only other one I’ve ever heard of is the French carrier “DeGaulle”, but it never operated very well from the day of its launch & the last I heard about it is that it was about to be mothballed.
Paul, you said: “my point is that I’m responding to the point you make in 9:26 concerning the emphatic use you make of the word “people” in the King James translation, from which you derive your hypothesis concerning the ethnic & religious origins of Ant-Christ. I’m simply pointing out to you that the Strong’s Concordance definition of the word “people” precludes using the Hebrew language word with only an ethnic tone to it, and that’s what these other translations bear out.”
The troops responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple were for the most part Roman citizens, under the command of Titus, a Roman citizen. If you are going to borrow from the Muslim Antichrist thesis, and claim that they were Syrians, or any other ethnic group, there is no point debating. I deal with historical facts not hogwash.
The facts you quote concerning the spread of ancient Rome’s empire also apply to Greece, Medo-Persia and Babylon. None of which were global in influence. And please don’t try to insert “known world” in place of global. You reject ancient Rome on those grounds, so be consistent. I have already pointed out the fact that Rome continued to expand its influence through the Holy Roman Empire and its colonial offshoots, and the Catholic church. And that is without getting into its influence through groups like the Freemasons.
Arguing over how things will pan out is pointless. But I can imagine a scenario were the USA, having gone through a similar collapse to that which happened to Russia, puts its armaments under the control of a then EU dominated NATO. I believe your illustrious leader did something similar during the recent Libyan debacle.
Paul, you said: “my point is that I’m responding to the point you make in 9:26 concerning the emphatic use you make of the word “people” in the King James translation, from which you derive your hypothesis concerning the ethnic & religious origins of Ant-Christ. I’m simply pointing out to you that the Strong’s Concordance definition of the word “people” precludes using the Hebrew language word with only an ethnic tone to it, and that’s what these other translations bear out.”
The troops responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple were for the most part Roman citizens, under the command of Titus, a Roman citizen. If you are going to borrow from the Muslim Antichrist thesis, and claim that they were Syrians, or any other ethnic group, there is no point debating. I deal with historical facts not hogwash.
……….not borrowing from any expositor’s thesis about a Muslim Anti-Christ, it’s an unbiblical concept, but it finds fertile ground within the minds of conspiracy buffs & sells a few books. When the books about it stop selling, the concept will diminish in short order & the whole idea will disappear.
The facts you quote concerning the spread of ancient Rome’s empire
………the facts I’ve quoted is that the ancient Roman empire never fulfilled Dan 2:39
also apply to Greece, Medo-Persia and Babylon. None of which were global in influence. And please don’t try to insert “known world” in place of global.
………..not me saying it, Babylon, Medo-Persia & Greece are identified as being in fulfillment of Dan 2:39 within the book of Daniel itself, I’m simply agreeing with that identification for only that reason.
You reject ancient Rome on those grounds, so be consistent.
…………and consistency being that the book of Daniel identifies the endtime kingdom of AntiChrist as the 4th world ruling empire, Rome is never mentioned anywhere in the book of Daniel.
I have already pointed out the fact that Rome continued to expand its influence through the Holy Roman Empire and its colonial offshoots, and the Catholic church.
…………but human propagation in recent centuries has not been static. Two billion Buddhists in the far east, & two billion more Hindus seriously dilute the “Christian” influences who number about billion, then there’s another billion Muslims. Among those four major populations, Christendom is less than a 1/4 of the world’s population, so much for the very geographically tiny Holy Roman Empire & offshoots.
And that is without getting into its influence through groups like the Freemasons.
…………I’m not into this silliness of “conspiracy theories” about secret societies of “skull & bones” fraternities. Stuff like Bilderburg, Rothchilds, Freemasonry, etc, is a lot of over hyped sensationalism created by people because it sells books within circles of Evangelical Protestantism.
Arguing over how things will pan out is pointless. But I can imagine a scenario were the USA, having gone through a similar collapse to that which happened to Russia, puts its armaments under the control of a then EU dominated NATO.
…………it’s news to me Russia has done this, it seems to me they are still maintaining autonomous control of their entire military. When did they turn it over to an “EU dominated NATO”?
I believe your illustrious leader did something similar during the recent Libyan debacle.
……….what “illustrious leader” are you referring to? Obama? The guy’s a communist, I’m a capitalist, it’s how I make my living.
Hi Paul, in my last comment I said “I have already pointed out the fact that Rome continued to expand its influence through the Holy Roman Empire and its colonial offshoots, and the Catholic church.”
If you choose to dismiss this, there is no point in debating. Historical Facts have to be mutually acknowledged if there is to be any hope of a convergence of opinions.
Read it again Paul. I said “Arguing over how things will pan out is pointless. But I can imagine a scenario were the USA, having gone through a similar collapse to that which happened to Russia, puts its (the USA’s) armaments under the control of a then EU dominated NATO. I believe your illustrious leader did something similar during the recent Libyan debacle.
Hi Paul, in my last comment I said “I have already pointed out the fact that Rome continued to expand its influence through the Holy Roman Empire and its colonial offshoots, and the Catholic church.”
If you choose to dismiss this, there is no point in debating. Historical Facts have to be mutually acknowledged if there is to be any hope of a convergence of opinions.
……….nope, didn’t dismiss it, just compared it to other cultures that have grown even faster. When you have three other cultures growing faster than one other that is the smaller of the four, how is it mathematically possible to reason that the culture that has least growth (Christian) has a net increase of influence? All those Holy Roman empire maps are smaller even than the original Roman Empire of the time of Christ.
Read it again Paul. I said “Arguing over how things will pan out is pointless. But I can imagine a scenario were the USA, having gone through a similar collapse to that which happened to Russia, puts its (the USA’s) armaments under the control of a then EU dominated NATO. I believe your illustrious leader did something similar during the recent Libyan debacle.
……….Oh, I thought you were just making a reference to Russia only. The problem with your proposed scenario that should the US would put its military under control of the EU, a huge logistical nightmare would ensue. It’ll be akin to the problem Obama is having in getting the US gov’t to run 1/6 of the US economy with its takeover of healthcare, they don’t have the expertise to do it. And why would we even bother to do it?
The biggest military complex in the world being run by a bunch of bickering tiny countries in Europe who have been selling all their debt to China is not what I would call a paradigm in building confidence between two continents that the debtor continent knows what it’s doing. I know where I’m putting my money and I know Europe has the slowest growth rate in the world along with a declining population.
Paul, you said “Nope, didn’t dismiss it, just compared it to other cultures that have grown even faster. When you have three other cultures growing faster than one other that is the smaller of the four, how is it mathematically possible to reason that the culture that has least growth (Christian) has a net increase of influence? All those Holy Roman empire maps are smaller even than the original Roman Empire of the time of Christ.”
Oh, so you don’t think that Western nations (a product of the Holy Roman Empire) dominate the world? You need to lose that mind-set that requires the core of an empire to be geographically huge. It’s blinding you to an historical reality that saw tiny England (another Roman product) rise to control what was geographically the greatest empire the world has ever seen.
Anyways, this debate is becoming circular, so unless you have something to say that we haven’t already discussed, we will have to agree to disagree. I appreciate your challenge to my thesis, and hope you will find the time to read my book.
Numbers 6:24-26
Phil…………I remember as a kid attending a fundamentalist church with my parents listening to all the stuff about resurrected Roman empires that will rule the world in the endtime. Then as I entered college, I learned the real world was a lot bigger than the eschatology taught in their church.
After completing my college studies & getting my Engineering degree, I became once again more interested again in the Bible prophecy, from the standpoint of its “literalism”. None of the prophetic teachings I’d been listening for so many years showed any evidence of coming to pass in the near future in spite of the predictions. All the hyped up explanations of Bible symbols espoused by end-time eschatologists that were not coming to fruition left me suspicious about their approach, so I thought maybe I’d look into reading Bible prophecy with a different perspective, “literalism”.
As I began to strip away contemporary explanations of the prophetic sections of the Bible, I suddenly saw so much of Bible prophecy that can only be fulfilled way beyond my lifetime & I think I have about half of it remaining. The fundamental mistake so many teachers of endtime eschatology make is the same thing the Millerites in the mid-1800’s made, that Christ was coming in their lifetime.
When isolated groups of religious people have a mindset from which they will not be deterred, they have a habit of sensationalizing prophetic passages of scripture to be fulfilled within their lifetime, a convenient rationalization for not planning their personal funeral event. In creating this blind reality they miss so many of the details required for fulfillment of Bible prophecy, as an example, the prophetic scriptures are crystal clear about the geographic origins of Anti-Christ, but so many are presently convinced Christ is returning in their lifetimes that they can’t see the remainder of the forest through all the trees in front of it, consequently these origins are ignored. So many 21st century Evangelicals are no less deluded than 19th century Millerites, and the reason being that they simply “spiritualize” away so much of what should be taken as “literal” fulfillments.
The geographic origin of Anti-Christ is so poignantly stated within the pages of prophetic text that it identifies not only his country of origin but the city of his birthplace, but guess what, nobody sees it because they have “symbolized” it away & “spiritualized” those passages of scripture. I can say with certainty that Anti-Christ has not yet been born because I know what prophetic scriptures state about his birthplace.
From the pages of Holy Writ are enough details about the origins of Anti-Christ that it’s impossible to miss he is not Muslim, & impossible to miss he is not coming from one of the countries of the present day European Union. As for me, I do not have an investment criteria for pushing the contemporary viewpoints of Bible prophecy, such messages from scriptural text will be crystal clear as the decades grind on & ever closer to the 2nd coming, but that time appears to be in the range of 50-100 years.
Hi Paul.
As one who has already stuck his neck out, and challenged the accepted interpretation of key portions of prophecy. I will certainly give space to a brother who similarly believes our Lord has given him a better focused view of these things.
You said a lot during our debate without revealing what you claim to know in your last post. What’s been stopping you? Lets see what you mean when you say “From the pages of Holy Writ are enough details about the origins of Anti-Christ.”
Spill the beans mate!
Phil…………I remember as a kid attending a fundamentalist church with my parents listening to all the stuff about resurrected Roman empires that will rule the world in the endtime. Then as I entered college, I learned the real world was a lot bigger than the eschatology taught in their church. After completing my college studies […]
Hi Paul.
As one who has already stuck his neck out, and challenged the accepted interpretation of key portions of prophecy. I will be certainly give space to a brother who similarly believes our Lord has given him a better focused view of these things.
You said a lot during our debate without revealing what you claim to know in your last post. What’s been stopping you? Lets see what you mean when you say “From the pages of Holy Writ are enough details about the origins of Anti-Christ.”
Phil, you picked up a sort of hot potato when you deviated from the standard explanation of Dan 7:17 concerning the four beasts which are four kings (kingdoms) which “shall arise out of the earth”. You have correctly employed the future tense of the Chaldee word, thus negating any possibility the symbols of the lion, bear & leopard are symbolic of the Babylonian, Persian & Greek empires, after all the Babylonian empire as an empire already contemporary to Daniel and about to fall to the Persians, cannot be described as an empire that “shall arise”.
The future tense of verse 17 is bolstered by verse 12: “As concerning the rest (remainder,7606) of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season & time”. Focus here on the word “prolonged”. Ask yourself this question: “prolonged” relative to what? The subject in discussion are the four beasts. Verse 11 had just concluded a discussion of the demise of Anti-Christ’s kingdom occurring at the coming of Messiah, then verse 12 brings into view of a prolonging of the lives given to the “the rest of the beasts”, this is to say the lion, bear, & leopard live beyond the lifetime of Anti-Christ’s kingdom symbolized by the fourth beast. We must therefore conclude the four beasts are contemporary with each other if three of them live beyond the lifespan of the one destroyed at Messiah’s coming.
The contemporary lives of these four beasts is further demonstrable from wording in verse 7 from the description of the actions of the fourth beast in that verse: “….it devoured & brake in pieces & stamped the residue (remainder, 7606) with the feet of it & it was diverse from all the beasts that were before (in front of, 6925) it….”.
In verse 7 I want to focus on the word “before”, the seventh word prior to the end of the verse. It appears in Strong’s Concordance as 6925. It is the Chaldee/Heb word which means “in front of”. From a directional standpoint it means “east”. Most prophetic eschatology misapply the KJ word “before” and use it as their justification in creating a context for succession in time of these four kingdoms, problem is, wrong Chald/Heb word for that context, note how that word is used in other places throughout the book of Daniel, it is present tense & positional in nature, no hint of succession by passage of time.
In the previous two paragraphs I called attention to two Chaldee/Hebrew words from Strong’s Concordance. Three times I noted use of 7606 where KJ translators used “rest” & “residue”. They should simply have used the word “remainder” as they did in most other places in the Old Testament. The use of “remainder” is a reflection from the previous subject of attention, the fourth beast as verse 11 transitions to verse 12 & opens up: “As concerning the remainder of the beasts”, this is to say 4-1=3 beasts remaining, present tense. Also 7:19 “residue” is 7606-remainder.
So now, upon rereading Dan 7:1-23 it is apparent that when the fourth beast is described as devouring, stamping and braking into pieces the remainder (residue) with its feet, the object of this action is the other three beasts, they are contemporary to it. After the fourth beast has subdued the lion, bear, & leopard it is now in fulfillment of verse 23, it now rules all the world via military conquest.
To this point my goal has been solely to buttress your point concerning your astute observation about the four beasts that “shall arise”. But if you do not understand the points I have made above in addition to your observation, then outlining specific details that points right to the birthplace of Anti-Christ just becomes an exercise in futility for me, you simply won’t want to follow it.
Hi Paul.
At this point we are very close to agreement. Please continue.
Northern & Southern Kings: Dan 11
End-Time Eschatology has been teaching very misleading historicity concerning the Northern & Southern kings of Daniel 11th chapter. They resort to ransacking the history of the Seleucid & Ptolemaic divisions of Alexander’s Greco-Macedonian empire for conclusions so loosely based on the facts that the obvious deviations between the prophecy & the historical record are simply ignored. The deviations are ignored because many don’t fit the template many end time eschatologists have created. Still, with their template in place, the next step has always been for them to squeeze Dan 11 into that template by whatever means necessary, in so doing creating a façade hidings a lot of important information for locating the homeland of Anti-Christ, the false Messiah.
From within the text itself of Dan 11 is a verse that provides the reader with the only necessary time frame by which to pinpoint the generation that commences the careers of the Kings of the Northern & Southern kingdoms, it is verse 6: “And in the end of years they shall join themselves together…..”. What follows is a brief episode of wedded bliss that binds these two kingdoms into an alliance with one another.
We are sure these two kingdoms reside within the geographical boundaries of the old Greek empire & two of its four divisions because that is what the text states in verses 1-5. In scriptural text, all points of the compass are in relation to the city of Jerusalem, thereby identifying that part of the division of the Greek empire that is immediately north of Jerusalem (Seleucid) & the one that is immediately south of Jerusalem (Ptolemaic).
The standard explanation of the wedding that occurs in this chapter is that of one occurring more than 100 years before Christ appeared on the earth in human form. How can it be reasoned this fulfills the opening words in verse 6: “And in the end of years….”? More than 100 years before the birth of Christ is hardly the Biblically accepted standard as being the “end times”, “latter days”, etc. Even as Christ himself stated that end times were beyond his present walk as he gave his prophecies that the “end is not yet” Mt 24:6, & 24:14 “then shall the end come” & numerous other passages where Christ places the end times into the future beyond his present walk with his disciples, in like manner so also must be the occurrence of the wedding in Dan 11, that is if we’re to believe the plainly stated time frame of Holy Writ & no less than the words of Christ himself.
Biblical text itself places Dan 11:1-5 prior to the time of Christ, that part is demonstrably part of the historical record, verse 6 is a different matter, it is not part of the historical record simply because the text clearly states it isn’t. It matters not whose wedding occurred 100 years before Christ, the prophecy doesn’t discuss it, only the wedding that occurs beyond the time of Christ in the “end of years (times)” is discussed here.
Establishing that the prophetic text of Dan 11th chapter begins at verse 6, the prophecies that follow provide the reader with a lot of very interesting details regarding the rise of the career of the man who becomes Anti-Christ & Israel’s false Messiah. Specific details within the Dan 11 text provides us with the compass point of direction of Anti-Christ’s homeland but not specifically locating the present day country & city that will be his place of birth, we need other text for that and is more lengthy than this short piece.
The really important matter from this point forward, is that the reader should be able to discern everything beyond Dan 11:5 is future even to the time of Christ. Without this discernment, further elaboration on my part concerning details of Anti-Christ is just an exercise in futility. If you already disagree with what I’ve just laid out, then you will have no interest of an expansion of details concerning the second end time northern king who becomes Anti-Christ.
Hi Paul.
Although I have mentioned in my e-book the matchmaking between the kings of the north and south as an historical event. I am now inclined to consider it to also be a foreshadow of an end-time event. Please continue.
Hi Paul.
Phil says: “Although I have mentioned in my e-book the matchmaking between the kings of the north and south as an historical event. I am now inclined to consider it to also be a foreshadow of an end-time event. Please continue.”
………be very cautious in taking this “foreshadow” approach. I have seen this before, & it always results in chaotic interpretations that would have otherwise been avoided if the expositor had just simply not brought up such a concept. The only prophecies I can recall that explicitly “foreshadow” anything, are only those which point to the person of Christ.
………OK, tomorrow when I have more time, I’ll get into some more details about some things. I’ll jot them down in a Word file & Copy them to your Posting page. Send them to you in a day or two.
Identifying the False Messiah Alias Anti-Christ-Dan 11th chapter
(Details that follow come from the notes I have made in my very wide margin KJ Bible, I don’t use commentaries for any purpose)
Laying out the geographical setting of this prophecy:
What I will do here is point out some details in Dan 11th chapter identifying some personal background information of that man who will become Anti-Christ who also can be known as the False or Substitute Messiah. Calling the third king of the North in this chapter as Anti-Christ is grossly mistranslating the Anglicized word ”anti”. From the Greek word 473 in Strong’s Concordance it literally means “instead” or “substitute”. The King James translators did a sloppy job here, so I’m cleaning it up a bit with the Greek transliteration.
Previously I pointed out the demarcation of time of the text that occurs between verses 5 & 6. Verses 1-5 describe the division of Alexander’s Greek empire, then verse 6 opens with “And in the end of years they shall join….” Immediately catapulting the remainder of the 11th chapter forward in time to a period commonly associated with the 2nd coming of Christ & the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy. The details that follow are careers of three kings of a northern kingdom & of one of a southern kingdom. These two “end of years” kingdoms are readily identified geographically as the Seleucid & Ptolemaic divisions of the Greco-Macedonian empire that occurred over two thousand years ago. Maps provide accurate depictions of these two kingdoms being immediately located north (Seluecid) & south (Ptolemaic) of Israel. The southern kingdom is specifically identified in verse 8 as being Egypt, the Ptolemaic division of Alexander’s empire. The Seleucid kingdom well known to be what today comprises Lebanon, Turkey, Syria and other areas west all the way to India. All points of the compass in the Bible are from the city of Jerusalem.
The 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy covers the seven year period of Anti-Christ’s reign. In Dan 11th chapter is described the reigns of three kings of the north, it is the third one who becomes Anti-Christ. Preceding Anti-Christ’s takeover of the northern kingdom in verse 21 is a fairly well detailed accounting of all the warfare that takes place between the first king of the north & the king of the south in Egypt. Descriptions of these events occur in years prior to the appearance of that man who is to become anti-Christ. How many years prior to anti-Christ’s appearance? It appears to be slightly less than two generations of time from the context of discussion in verse 10 concerning the progeny of the first northern king: “his sons shall be stirred up & assemble a great multitude of forces….”. We garner from this that the northern king has adult progeny who are his military advisors, they may even be grandsons of the southern King via the marriage that occurred in verse 6, or maybe one of them is a son-in-law via that marriage, we just don’t know who married whom here.
Arbitrarily assigning one & half generations that must pass before the third king arises to take over the northern kingdom, would entail about 20-40 years passage of time from the onset of verse 6 to the opening day of the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy. That’s a pretty generous warning if you ask me. In the meantime the headlines of the times during all those years will be the bitter warfare in the middle east concerning all this fighting subsequent to a much publicized wedding. All the world will be hearing & seeing everything there will be to know about this bloody soap opera being played out on the world stage. Living in Israel will be a perilous existence at this time, it is caught directly between the warring factions.
Moving on to verse 20 & the 2nd king of the north. He raises taxes ostensibly to pay for the previous king’s war economy, dumb idea on his part I guess, anyway it gets him booted by whatever means. It’ll make big headlines you can be sure, mess around with people’s income & they’ll make you pay a political price for it. By this point in time the world is just a few days to the opening day of the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy. If there is a secret rapture of the Body of Christ, it in all likelihood occurs right in here somewhere.
Finally in verse 21 we move on to the rise of the career of that man endtime eschatology has dubbed as the infamous Anti-Christ, the one who becomes a false messiah to Israel. It isn’t my purpose here to go into all his attributes beyond this verse, but rather to recap what we have thus far learned of his predecessors & where they lived & their citizenship.
The countries on the compass point north from Jerusalem within the boundaries of the Seleucid kingdom are present day Lebanon, Syria & Turkey. We don’t care about the western portion of the Seleucid kingdom because the text tells us to look north but remaining within the boundaries of the Seleucid kingdom which at its northern most point terminates in today’s country of Turkey.
To this point we’ve isolated the extreme northwestern area of the ancient Greek Seleucid kingdom as the homeland of Anti-Christ. These are present day countries of Lebanon, Syria, & Turkey. He is a citizen from a town from somewhere within this present day geographical area. If the reader disagrees, then I won’t waste my time with further details regarding his national identity because those details are solely based on the premises I have set forth above. These three countries as they exist today are subject to future change as may be necessary to accommodate prophetic fulfillment.
Hi Paul. I will respond to your last two posts together here:
You said “be very cautious in taking this “foreshadow” approach. I have seen this before, & it always results in chaotic interpretations that would have otherwise been avoided if the expositor had just simply not brought up such a concept. The only prophecies I can recall that explicitly “foreshadow” anything, are only those which point to the person of Christ.”
Antiochus IV Epiphanes partially fulfilled the following prophecy as a foreshadow of the Antichrist mentioned in Daniel 11:21: “And in his estate shall arise a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom; but he shall come in peaceably, and take over the kingdom by using flattery.”
The prophecies in chapter 11 were historically fulfilled with such great accuracy that it has left detractors with no option than to claim thy were written after the fact. A claim that can easily be shown to be hogwash.
I let you run with this because I too see another latter day fulfillment of some things mentioned after verse 6. The modern day marriage of a British royal whose ancestry traces back to the Ptolomies, to a Greek prince whose ancestry can be traced back to the Seleucids is an event that I think may be foreshadowed in chapter 11. But dismissing any historical fulfillment of chapter 11 prophecies is ridiculous. They are facts of history!
You said “To this point we’ve isolated the extreme northwestern area of the ancient Greek Seleucid kingdom as the homeland of Anti-Christ. These are present day countries of Lebanon, Syria, & Turkey. He is a citizen from a town from somewhere within this present day geographical area.”
Verse 40-45 says: “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall charge at him like a storm, with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. And he will invade the countries, sweeping through them like a flood. 41 He shall also enter the glorious land, and many countries will fall. But Edom, Moab, and most of the people of Ammon shall escape him. 42 He will stretch out his influence against the countries, and Egypt shall not escape. 43 He will take control of the treasures of gold and silver, and all the precious things of Egypt. The Libyans and Ethiopians will follow in his footsteps. 44 But rumours from the east and the north shall disturb him; therefore he will charge out with great fury to destroy and annihilate. 45 And he will pitch his royal tents between the seas and the glorious holy mountain. But he shall come to his end, and nobody will help him.”
Paul, if he comes from where you say, it would mean this northern king is attacking himself. It’s the king of the south and the king of the north attacking him (the Antichrist). Who is distinguished as coming from the west by the fact that the other points of the compass are mentioned.
Response from Paul:
Hi Paul. I will respond to your last two posts together here:
You said “be very cautious in taking this “foreshadow” approach. I have seen this before, & it always results in chaotic interpretations that would have otherwise been avoided if the expositor had just simply not brought up such a concept. The only prophecies I can recall that explicitly “foreshadow” anything, are only those which point to the person of Christ.”
Antiochus IV Epiphanes partially fulfilled the following prophecy as a foreshadow of the Antichrist mentioned in Daniel 11:21: “And in his estate shall arise a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom; but he shall come in peaceably, and take over the kingdom by using flattery.”
……….I’ve never read anything in the Bible that Epiphanes is a foreshadow of Anti-Christ. Unless Holy Writ explicitly makes reference to matters of historical accounts it cannot be a foreshadow of anything in the Bible. Preterists are fond of making such analogies, I’m a Literalist.
The prophecies in chapter 11 were historically fulfilled with such great accuracy that it has left detractors with no option than to claim thy were written after the fact. A claim that can easily be shown to be hogwash.
……….everybody is free to believe whatever they want about anything they want. If they want to confuse a wedding event that occurred about 100 BC with an event that occurs in the “end of years” with a timeline clearly and unambiguously stated in Dan 11:6, then it’s no concern of mine. I understand there are those who believe God is so confused about when the “end of years” occurs, that they feel an urgent need to step in & help him out here. I just don’t happen to believe God needs my help here, I’m simply willing to take at face value what God had his scribes write & go with it.
I let you run with this because I too see another latter day fulfillment of some things mentioned after verse 6. The modern day marriage of a British royal whose ancestry traces back to the Ptolomies, to a Greek prince whose ancestry can be traced back to the Seleucids is an event that I think may be foreshadowed in chapter 11. But dismissing any historical fulfillment of chapter 11 prophecies is ridiculous. They are facts of history!
…………once again you are defaulting to men’s history books from which to extrapolate a foreshadowing of Biblical prophecy, I never do that, I allow for the words of Holy Writ to stand alone just as Rev 22:18-19 advises me to do. What would you believe if you’d never in your life seen a world history book but you did have a copy of the Bible? With no world history book to guide you for interpreting the Bible I guess you’d be in a real pickle trying to figure out the meaning of Dan 11th chapter? Toss the history book aside & verse 6 “end of years” sets the only timeline you need to clearly understand this prophecy.
You said “To this point we’ve isolated the extreme northwestern area of the ancient Greek Seleucid kingdom as the homeland of Anti-Christ. These are present day countries of Lebanon, Syria, & Turkey. He is a citizen from a town from somewhere within this present day geographical area.”
Verse 40-45 says: “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall charge at him like a storm, with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. And he will invade the countries, sweeping through them like a flood. 41 He shall also enter the glorious land, and many countries will fall. But Edom, Moab, and most of the people of Ammon shall escape him. 42 He will stretch out his influence against the countries, and Egypt shall not escape. 43 He will take control of the treasures of gold and silver, and all the precious things of Egypt. The Libyans and Ethiopians will follow in his footsteps. 44 But rumours from the east and the north shall disturb him; therefore he will charge out with great fury to destroy and annihilate. 45 And he will pitch his royal tents between the seas and the glorious holy mountain. But he shall come to his end, and nobody will help him.”
Paul, if he comes from where you say, it would mean this northern king is attacking himself. It’s the king of the south and the king of the north attacking him (the Antichrist). Who is distinguished as coming from the west by the fact that the other points of the compass are mentioned.
………….I’m not sure I see your point here………By progression of events: In verses 42-43 Anti-Christ is described as being in Egypt, then in verse 44 “rumours” from the east & north disturb him causing him to charge out of Egypt & head north to Israel to the “glorious holy mountain”. How is he attacking himself?
Paul, in order to enforce your view that “end of years” prophecies can have no foreshadow, you are insisting that foreshadowing is exclusive to prophecies concerning Jesus Christ. You said:
Don’t you consider Nebuchadnezzar’s demand that everyone worship his golden image, recorded in Daniel chapter 3, to be a foreshadow of something that would later happen with Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and later again with the Antichrist?
By rejecting historical record you allow yourself freedom to make any outlandish claim that takes your fancy. This is the same sort of illogical thinking that gave us the dodgy interpretation of Daniel chapter seven’s beasts, and the more recent garbage of a Muslim Antichrist.
As I said in an earlier comment. There has to be common acknowledgement of facts for there to be any hope of a convergence of opinions.
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Foreshadowing:
Paul, in order to enforce your view that “end of years” prophecies can have no foreshadow, you are insisting that foreshadowing is exclusive to prophecies concerning Jesus Christ. You said:
………….The only prophecies I can recall that explicitly “foreshadow” anything, are only those which point to the person of Christ.
Don’t you consider Nebuchadnezzar’s demand that everyone worship his golden image, recorded in Daniel chapter 3, to be a foreshadow of something that would later happen with Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and later again with the Antichrist?
………certainly not with regard to Epiphanes because he is not mentioned in the Bible & never the head of a world ruling government as the Bible states Nebuchadnezzar was & Anti-Christ will be. However the analogy of the latter two doesn’t sound unreasonable, I’d never thought about it until you just brought it up. Anti-Christ will certainly demand everyone’s fealty just as Nebuchadnezzar did, so I guess in that sense there is a foreshadowing.
By rejecting historical record you allow yourself freedom to make any outlandish claim that takes your fancy.
…………..the historical record is the historical record, we just don’t find most of it in the Bible, for example my birth, or yours.………What’s the specific historical record you’re suggesting is being rejected? What outlandish claim? Is it an outlandish claim to point out that a wedding occurring in 253 BC is not a wedding fulfilling Dan 11:6 “in the end of years”?
This is the same sort of illogical thinking that gave us the dodgy interpretation of Daniel chapter seven’s beasts, and the more recent garbage of a Muslim Antichrist.
……….so from your standpoint of reasoning it is perfectly acceptable that a wedding occurring in 253 BC is the fulfillment of Dan 11:6 “in the end of years”? There’s nothing “illogical” about that? Or have you been suggesting that the wedding in 253 BC foreshadows one that will occur “in the end of years”?
What is your concept of time when you see the phrase “in the end of years”? Anything from 253BC to the present?
As I said in an earlier comment. There has to be common acknowledgement of facts for there to be any hope of a convergence of opinions.
………..that’s for sure, that’s why when I read the pages of Holy Writ & see things like four beasts “…shall arise….” in Dan 7:17 or, a wedding “…in the end of years….” Dan 11:6, that I began to wonder how popular expository teachings could have any semblance of accuracy when expositors ignore the most obvious clues they must be wrong about what they’re teaching. It’s an amazing thing to behold, stick to the text of Holy Writ & watch the criticism roll in like a thunderous storm.
Paul you said “the historical record is the historical record, we just don’t find most of it in the Bible,”
The majority of chapter 11 is now historical record. The actions of the Seleucids and Ptolomies are recorded there, and verified by secular record.
With regard to Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Apart from him fulfilling the prophecy concerning the little horn that rises up among ten, and uproots three, he was also responsible for a foreshadow of the abomination of desolation.
You said “so from your standpoint of reasoning it is perfectly acceptable that a wedding occurring in 253 BC is the fulfillment of Dan 11:6 “in the end of years”? There’s nothing “illogical” about that? Or have you been suggesting that the wedding in 253 BC foreshadows one that will occur “in the end of years”?”
I am suggesting that, in keeping with the established prophetic practice of foreshadowing, that wedding may be a foreshadow of one that occurred in the “end of years”.
I didn’t answer your last point in your previous post, so I will deal with it here.
You said, ” ………….I’m not sure I see your point here………By progression of events: In verses 42-43 Anti-Christ is described as being in Egypt, then in verse 44 “rumours” from the east & north disturb him causing him to charge out of Egypt & head north to Israel to the “glorious holy mountain”. How is he attacking himself?”
It appears that you are confusing the king of the north with the Antichrist. Below I have quoted the passage again, inserting (A/C) for Antichrist to clarify who is being spoken of.
Verse 40-45 says: “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him (A/C); and the king of the North shall charge at him (A/C) like a storm, with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. And he (A/C) will invade the countries, sweeping through them like a flood. 41 He (A/C) shall also enter the glorious land, and many countries will fall. But Edom, Moab, and most of the people of Ammon shall escape him (A/C). 42 He (A/C) will stretch out his (A/C) influence against the countries, and Egypt shall not escape. 43 He (A/C) will take control of the treasures of gold and silver, and all the precious things of Egypt. The Libyans and Ethiopians will follow in his (A/C) footsteps. 44 But rumours from the east and the north shall disturb him (A/C); therefore he (A/C) will charge out with great fury to destroy and annihilate. 45 And he (A/C) will pitch his (A/C) royal tents between the seas and the glorious holy mountain. But he (A/C) shall come to his (A/C) end, and nobody will help him (A/C.”
Paul you said “the historical record is the historical record, we just don’t find most of it in the Bible,”
The majority of chapter 11 is now historical record. The actions of the Seleucids and Ptolomies are recorded there, and verified by secular record.
………….this is not what is stated in verse 6 made abundantly clear by the words: “And in the end of years……”. Come on Phil, it’s only verses 1-5 that supports your statement, now, again I invite you to make a clear statement about when the “…end of years begins” as stated in verse 6, I keep asking the question & you continue avoiding answering the question.
With regard to Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Apart from him fulfilling the prophecy concerning the little horn that rises up among ten, and uproots three
……………Really now! Where is there a statement anywhere in the Bible about this guy doing all these things “in the end of years”? He died in 164 BC long before Christ even showed up. A serious question here………Are you a Preterist?
he was also responsible for a foreshadow of the abomination of desolation.
…………a “foreshadow”? Where does the Bible state he was ever a “foreshadow” of anything? Biblical foreshadows are not derived from the nonBiblical historical record unless they are included in the Biblical record such as Nebuchadnezzar was, he is an example of an historical figure included within the Biblical record. Biblical “foreshadows” are derived only from something in the previously stated Biblical text & you fail to comprehend the difference. You’ve created a template of Bible prophecy & resorted to ransacking European history to insert nonBiblical characters into your template to fulfill it, your “foreshadows” don’t exist in the Bible & still you won’t commit to an opinion as to when “in the end of years…” begins because all the details of characters you conjecture about were dead long before Christ was born. So far, the only thing I’ve garnered from you is that “the end of years…” occurred somewhere between 253 & 164 BC.
You said “so from your standpoint of reasoning it is perfectly acceptable that a wedding occurring in 253 BC is the fulfillment of Dan 11:6 “in the end of years”? There’s nothing “illogical” about that? Or have you been suggesting that the wedding in 253 BC foreshadows one that will occur “in the end of years”?”
I am suggesting that, in keeping with the established prophetic practice of foreshadowing, that wedding may be a foreshadow of one that occurred in the “end of years”.
………..your problem with this concept of “foreshadow” is clearly that you fail to comprehend the Biblical premise of “foreshadow”. You are of the mind that anything you see in a history book is fair game to be used as a criteria to interpret Holy Writ. The Bible stands alone Phil, it doesn’t need some human publisher’s history book for interpretation & this is precisely the reason you don’t understand most of the 11th chapter of Daniel, you keep adding stuff to the clearly stated Biblical text, & then you imagine how cleverly you figured out something the rest of us couldn’t because we don’t have your invaluable insight. I’m not trying to be rude here, but please, do not put Holy Writ on the same level as a high school history book, or try to bring such a book up to the stand alone level of God’s word.
I didn’t answer your last point in you previous post, so I will deal with it here.
You said, ” ………….I’m not sure I see your point here………By progression of events: In verses 42-43 Anti-Christ is described as being in Egypt, then in verse 44 “rumours” from the east & north disturb him causing him to charge out of Egypt & head north to Israel to the “glorious holy mountain”. How is he attacking himself?”
It appears that you are confusing the king of the north with the Antichrist
……….the 3rd king in the north becomes the Anti-Christ, the succession of events make this quite clear.
. Below I have quoted the passage again, inserting (A/C) for Antichrist to clarify who is being spoken of.
Verse 40-45 says: “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him (A/C); and the king of the North shall charge at him (A/C)
……. “him (A/C)” is not Ant-Christ the way you have it designated here Phil, should be K/S, king of the South.
like a storm, with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. And he (A/C) will invade the countries, sweeping through them like a flood. 41 He (A/C) shall also enter the glorious land, and many countries will fall. But Edom, Moab, and most of the people of Ammon shall escape him (A/C). 42 He (A/C) will stretch out his (A/C) influence against the countries, and Egypt shall not escape. 43 He (A/C) will take control of the treasures of gold and silver, and all the precious things of Egypt. The Libyans and Ethiopians will follow in his (A/C) footsteps. 44 But rumours from the east and the north shall disturb him (A/C); therefore he (A/C) will charge out with great fury to destroy and annihilate. 45 And he (A/C) will pitch his (A/C) royal tents between the seas and the glorious holy mountain. But he (A/C) shall come to his (A/C) end, and nobody will help him (A/C.
……….above designations look okay, but still missing your point, seems like you’re trying to make it from verse 40, but even there I don’t pick it up with any clarity that Anti-Christ is attacking himself. I think you may be trying to say he is not a king from the North? If that’s it, where is he from?
Paul.
It doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible that Nebuchadnezzar’s golden image, and his demand for its worship was a foreshadow of what happens during “the end of years”, but you have conceded the fact that it was. It doesn’t say in the Bible that Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfilled the prophecies concerning the little horn, and the Abomination of Desolation in a manor that foreshadows its final fulfillment, but he did. If you reject that fact because it is only proven by the marriage of secular history with Holy Writ. Where does that leave you when it comes to Biblical facts like the Babylonian exile, and the rebuilding of the Temple and Jerusalem, and so many other facts that can only be established in there place in time by consulting the historical record?
Don’t you see how ridiculous your rejection of historical fact is? You attempt to isolate Biblical record to a place outside of reality. No Paul! The Bible absolutely does not stand alone. Among many other things, it is an historical record that can be married with other archaeological and historical records, to give us a clear picture of the time, place and event etc.
I am not sure of when the “end of years” actually begins. If you read Daniel 12 you may conclude it begins with the daily sacrifice being taken away, and the abomination of desolation being set up. But do you really think all that recorded in Dan 11:6 onward will fit into the space of 1335 days?
I see the things recorded there, as a foreshadowing fulfillment, similar to the foreshadowing fulfillment that was Nebuchadnezzar’s image.
And no! I am not a Preterist. Neither did you have any cause to ask the question!
Finally, you said: ” I think you may be trying to say he is not a king from the North? If that’s it, where is he from?”
I am glad to see you have understood me on that point. He is absolutely not the king of the north. That figure, and the king of the south, and those from the east come against him. He is a king that comes from the west. A revived Roman west!
Bye the way. In any future comments, would you make it clear when you are quoting me. Your lack of clarity could make it confusing for others reading our debate.
Paul you said “the historical record is the historical record, we just don’t find most of it in the Bible,” The majority of chapter 11 is now historical record. The actions of the Seleucids and Ptolomies are recorded there, and verified by secular record. ………….this is not what is stated in verse 6 made abundantly […]
Paul.
It doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible that Nebuchadnezzar’s golden image, and his demand for it’s worship was a foreshadow of what happens during “the end of years”, but you have conceded the fact that it was.
………….not quite what I said, but close enough I guess.
It doesn’t say in the Bible that Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfilled the prophecies concerning the little horn, and the Abomination of Desolation in a manor that foreshadows its final fulfillment, but he did.
………….the difference is that Nebuchadnezzar’s name & reign is recorded in the Bible, Epiphanes does not appear.
If you reject that fact
……….it isn’t me rejecting it, God simply didn’t bring it up, so why should I care if God doesn’t bring it up?
because it is only proven by the marriage of secular history with Holy Writ.
……….you keep pounding that drum Phil, but you still won’t tell me when the “end of years” in verse 6 commenced. According to your math it must be no later than 164BC.
Where does that leave you when it comes to facts of history, like the Babylonian exile, the rebuilding of the Temple and Jerusalem, and so many other facts that can only be established by consulting the historical record?
………..what are you talking about? These are all recorded in the Bible as well as secular history books. What is your point?
Don’t you see how ridiculous your rejection of historical fact is?
………rejection of what historical fact? My birth is an historical fact, but I don’t feel slighted by God because he didn’t record it in the Bible like he did to King David. How would you like to have the sordid details of your life splashed all over the pages of Biblical history like God did to him? Better somebody else than me.
You attempt to isolate Biblical record to a place outside of reality.
……follow to next:
No Paul! The Bible absolutely does not stand alone.
…………really Phil, now I more clearly see it. God just can’t make it alone without which of us humans to help him out? The ones repeatedly saying a wedding in 253 BC as having occurred “..in the end of years…” ?
Among many other things, it is an historical record that can be married with other archaeological and historical records, to give us a clear picture of the time, place and event etc.
…………but you imply the “end of years” in verse 6 must have begun with a wedding in 253 BC.………….but so what, it must not matter that much to God if he does not inspire his scribes to make note of such a 253 BC event in the Bible.
I am not sure of when the “end of years” actually begins.
………you’ve been implying “end of years” began about 253 BC, the year of the wedding you keep referring to in verse 6 as having occurred in that year. The historical record is the historical record, it is 253 BC. Now you want to change the wedding to another year? Please, don’t, especially do not pick the year of my wedding.
If you read Daniel 12 you may conclude it begins with the daily sacrifice being taken away, and the abomination of desolation being set up. But do you really think all that recorded in Dan 11:6 onward will fit into the space of 1335 days?
…………Why do you think “.. the end of years…” comprises 1335 days?
………… The “end of years” begins with the reign of the 1st King of the North, that’s not me saying it, it’s stated in verse 6 “And in the end of years…..”, this “end of years”commences with the rise to power of the 1st king of the North. His reign is contemporary to the King of the South in Egypt who years later comes to his demise by the hand of Anti-Christ who invades his kingdom & wipes it out. How old do men get to be before they are no longer fit for military duty? Fifty years old tops & the southern King in Egypt has already been fighting with the Northern king for nearly a generation of time? That’s a lot more than 1335 days ( I’m pretty good at math Phil, had several semesters of calculus in Engineering School).
I see the things recorded there, as a foreshadowing fulfillment, similar to the foreshadowing fulfillment that was Nebuchadnezzar’s image.
……….well, good luck with your conjecture, you’ll be taking it to your grave with you because we’re not yet all that close to the generation that gives rise to the 1st King of the North, much less the rise of Anti-Christ. Between now & the rise of the 1st King of the North, the middle east will go through cataclysmic changes that will make half of it unrecognizable from the standpoint of today’s borders, I will even go so far as to say that the country of Turkey will cease to exist.
And no! I am not a Preterist. Neither did you have any cause to ask the question!
…………sure I did, your Preterist responses.
Finally, you said: ” I think you may be trying to say he is not a king from the North? If that’s it, where is he from?”
I am glad to see you have understood me on that point.
……..I only thought that may have been the point you were attempting to make, not that I agreed with it which I don’t.
He is absolutely not the king of the north.
…………the context doesn’t support your opinion but you’re entitled to it.
That figure, and the king of the south,
………..????
and those from the east come against him.
……….where is it stated: “those from the east come against him”?
He is a king that comes from the west. A revived Roman west!
………where is it stated: “He is a king that comes from the west. A revived Roman west”?
Paul. I did ask you to clarify where you are quoting me because your posts are becoming increasingly garbled. I don’t have the time to do it for you, so please comply.
I didn’t repeatedly say anything about a wedding that took place in 253BC. I said: “I let you run with this because I too see another latter day fulfillment of some things mentioned after verse 6. The modern day marriage of a British royal whose ancestry traces back to the Ptolomies, to a Greek prince whose ancestry can be traced back to the Seleucids is an event that I think may be foreshadowed in chapter 11.” I only mentioned it again because you brought it up. So don’t try to misrepresent what was nothing more than me sharing my thoughts.
Daniel chapter 11:3-4 speaks of Alexander the Great whose kingdom was divided on his death between his Generals. Two of whom rose to Biblical prominence as the king of the north and king of the south. Chapter 11:6 says that in the “end of years” they will join themselves together.
What is the end of years? You say it must be exclusively a future period of time. You seem to believe it to mean Daniel’s 70th Week. But in order to make that argument, you have to divorce it from historical fact. You have to pluck Alexander the Great’s Generals out of their historical reality, and transport them to some time in the future.
I think a far more realistic explanation of what is meant by “end of years” is that it began historically with the Ptolomies and Seleucids joining together. And will see the final result of that joining in the Antichrist.
Paul, you asked: “where is it stated: “those from the east come against him?”
My answer: Dan 11:44. Rev 16:12
Then you asked: “where is it stated: “He is a king that comes from the west. A revived Roman west?”
My answer: Dan 9:26
I am not interested in answering mockery, so I have edited your last comments out.
Paul. I am not going to post your last comment because you have increased the mockery content that I already told you I wasn’t interested in replying to.
You have obviously not thought through your rejection of the historical fulfillment of prophecy on the basis that the people are not named in the Bible.
The Antichrist isn’t named in the Bible either. But one day his name will be recorded in history. He will have been recognized by his fulfillment of the prophecies concerning him.
If we take your argument to its logical conclusion we arrive at an absurdity. We must conclude that prophetic fulfillment is unknowable because the Bible doesn’t give us the names as well as the deeds of those it speaks of.
Block out my comments cause I dont care to listen to your ignorance
Ignorance ???
Phil Mayo,
You have a lot of interesting ideas here.
Here’s a few observations.
I believe you have quite a lot of Daniel 7 correct.
1- The non-linear timeline; and,
2- Your observation about the latter four beasts, their FUTURE appearance and their differences from the first four, earlier beasts is very good, I think.
These are two nice pieces to get right, especially observation #2. And though they do run counter to many commentaries on Daniel, both appear to be sound.
The “filling in the blanks” with speculation at other points is not quite so right, however.
Detailing those particular speculations deserves more than just dashing off a few quick lines each. But, you have some good points here.
You have done some very good historical research, some of which is germane; some maybe not so much.
I do believe the Revived Roman Empire is a red herring tossed out by the Modern Prophecy Industry. It doesn’t fulfill Scripture of an empire ruling the entire earth. Some Scriptures used to justify a revived Roman empire clearly are twisted beyond recognition; e.g., Daniel 9 24-27.
The corrupt interpretations of Daniel 9:24-27 of the last 100 years or so is totally, completely absolutely foreign to Christianity before our modern time. I am not saying that interpretations cannot change as events unfold. However, these modern interpretations had nothing to do with current events unfolding–and everything to do with stage-managing future events.
This should be a minor point, but so many make it a major point.
The fact that you are willing to look at some of these verses differently from the Christian mass media is a point in your favor.
Okay, that’s all for now. Good job on those two Daniel 7 observations. Hold on to those as part of your foundation.
Thanks for your observations. But they would be more fair if you stated clearly what you are talking about when you say “filling in the blanks” with speculation” , and “Detailing those particular speculations deserves more than just dashing off a few quick lines each.
I can’t really answer if I don’t know what you are talking about.
You said “The corrupt interpretations of Daniel 9:24-27 of the last 100 years or so is totally, completely absolutely foreign to Christianity before our modern time.” That isn’t much of an argument against modern interpretations if you take into account the fact that Daniel’s prophecies were sealed until the time of the end.
PS…
Your discussion in the comments with Paul is a good one.
He has some pieces of the puzzle. The big ones he has are the ones which disagree with Christian mass media and the Modern Prophecy Industry.
Yes, he has some valid points.